The Gym Owners Blog/Podcast/Coaches: STOP Acting Like Medical Professionals.. #stayinyourlane

Coaches: STOP Acting Like Medical Professionals.. #stayinyourlane

Friday, February 23, 2024



shoulder, people, person, personal trainer, coach, fix, work, gym, good, clients, dorks, training, injury, problem, physical therapist, hurt, crossfit, trust


  • Blurring lines between fitness professions and legal accountability. (0:00)
  • Fitness assessments and personal training. (5:39)
  • Fitness coaching and injury management. (9:44)
  • Collaboration between personal trainers and physical therapists. (14:33)
  • Personal training limitations and partnerships. (18:55)
  • Personal trainers and physical therapists' roles. (23:24)
  • Predatory coaching practices and the importance of staying in one's lane. (27:55)
  • Personal training and nutrition business growth. (33:04)
  • Fitness industry's reliance on referrals and authenticity. (40:22)
  • Building partnerships for referrals and lead generation. (44:57)


Tyler 00:00

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the gym owners podcast. This week we're going to talk about coaches, fitness coaches, strength coaches, whatever it is out there that are not medical professionals fucking around in the world and some use in terms of speaking like they are going to be medical professionals, I'll fix my camera in a minute John, crossing into the realm maybe like not understanding the boundaries of your profession, and what the risks that come with that also what you really look like to people that don't already have your trust. So we're gonna talk about the pros and cons of learning, maybe like reaching a little bit outside the traditional boundaries when people think of a personal trainer, and where it is when you've gone too far. And you've completely jumped ship. So, John, I'm gonna fix my camera here. Will you take this the rest of the way? Take the intro, thank you.

John Fairbanks 00:43

Absolutely, you can follow Tyler on Instagram at Tyler effing stone, that's Tyler E F F I N stone, you can follow me on Instagram at Jay banks FL and follow the show at the gym owners podcast. Also get into the Facebook group, you can join the gym owners revolution Facebook group, the link is in the description for the episode below.

Tyler 01:06

Let's get started. Alright, guys, nicely done. So this was a subject that we got sent to us from someone who we work with who has a business that is also that is a physical therapy. It's a physical therapist that has multiple locations, and then also multiple locations attached to that business. It is also a fitness center, right? There's personal training that goes on in that facility. There's also what I would describe. I don't know how to describe it as a prescribed physical therapy as well, because Yep. And so you have people with a lengthy educational background and maybe a more hot, let's say highly specific type of training that's going on inside on the physical therapy side. I do think the physical therapy thing very often leads itself to sort of looking for pathology, right, this, we're in there to solve the problem, right? I don't know if too many people that work in physical therapy are doing things long term or going to a physical therapist for things like weight loss or general exercise or things like that. No way. Yeah, cuz this is insurance. It's an insurance thing much like a rag most of the time it is. But he's noticed a trend that of course, John and I have had that front seat from a lot of schmucks play in this game, the trend is out there now is every part every physical fitness, personal trainer out there, or coach, crop coach, fitness coach, health coach strength coach out there now, all of a sudden, because they're good at that little bit of the human body moving strength training, whatever, they start to fucking blur those lines, right? And they start to speak on things that I think maybe they get out of their depth really, really fucking quickly. And the problem is, by the way, let's go. Just a hypothetical example here. The problem I have with this is that if I have a bad shoulder, right, now, it's important to me that if I'm gonna hire just a personal trainer, that I have a personal trainer who just understands how not to make it worse, right? How can I exercise, it's not going to make it worse, or even better. If I'm not injured at all, I think for a personal trainer or coach, to know how my shoulder works and know how I can move safely. That is going to prevent me from injuring myself via my exercise, right. And I think that's where these coaches start off with their hearts in the right place. Because it started off for me and a lot of people that we were involved with John, it started off with a lot of people who were training in CrossFit, we're having lots of these injuries. So it starts as, hey, here's some different priorities that we should do in either scaling workouts or how we warm up and also like how we really are, do we really need to be using some of these exercises this way, that we're able to create a system where people can say, get the benefits of some sort of training like CrossFit, powerlifting bodybuilding style training, while avoiding some of these injuries that then create setbacks for their training. And in doing so, we learn a fair amount of how to do that right at least like you know, I don't want you doing kipping pull ups here. You can do this instead, we can get the same results without injuring your shoulder. So injury prevention, I think is a line. Right? It's a line that we're okay, we're okay to cross into. I think the other side of that that was work is real fucking lame. But people come in and they go, like I have a bad shoulder and they go perfect. I'll just get this guy with ABS who just fucking took a couple of weekend seminars and just reads whatever should online and it's been coaching for a couple of years. And I'm just gonna have him prescribe what I need to do to fix it. And even if even if they're right You're making claims that are legally going to really fuck you. Like, really, really, really bad. And that's the thing that's been going on a lot. John, we've been talking about this in other spaces that like the world of your marketing, your online marketing, what you say the promises you make right now. The fitness profession is going to be in for a reckoning, oh, yeah, at some point, we actually have to start becoming legally accountable for the claims that we're making and whether or not we've accomplished them or not, or whether we are legally allowed to that's just on this subject that's on weight loss that's on salts that's on for everything. So it's

John Fairbanks 05:39

a slippery slope, though, right? Because it is, if you don't give a shit and you're not really making an effort to like, be better, you're probably not going to fall into the fall into a slippery slope of like, now you're kind of a WebMD expert, or you do go now seek out a conference or a seminar or some type of an event that you start to hear like, Oh, this is going to help us be able to fix her shoulders or be able because because now you start getting around where the more you dig, the more dangerous it becomes that you're like digging your own grave professionally. And that is where I think we're certainly where you and I came from, was a world where people were seeing their adherence to a training methodology, right? Where it was, no, it's CrossFit. And this was the good old days of like, if you don't get Rhabdo, you're a pussy. And you need to kip every day, and you need a max snatch every fucking day, like all these things were these things. And it was kind of for the first time people being like, maybe we should bicep curl, and benchpress and do some basic shit, right, have

Tyler 06:53

some structure, or build a little structure before we start ripping our limbs off here. And

John Fairbanks 06:59

That was kind of where that's where you start. And the problem is, if you continue down that rabbit hole, you're not respectful of where the personal trainer Lane begins, but most importantly, where the personal trainer Lane ends. And then there were people that have done more than a weekend seminar, or done more than a weekend certification program, to where now you're starting to venture into like, healing or diagnosing, right. And that's kind of where it's the big difference between a movement assessment so you can better understand how somebody is moving in order to train them better and know how you need to scaffold training methodologies or movements, to then your movement assessment is now that you're somehow a wizard or a fucking doctor.

Tyler 07:47

Yeah, and these movement assessments, John, that's the thing that we have, we've worked with Jim. So we had them do it for everybody that came in, right. But this was a movement assessment always done in the context of their goals. Because if you want to lose 20 pounds, this is an assessment of how you move, this is how we build the plan. And it's really you walking them through what their actual plan is going to be for them to usually lose weight or get to this level of performance not, I'm coming in. And so that you can just get this, this turns into the same issue when somebody comes in and has a regular silly little injury, and the doctor gives them a diagnosis, and the person can, oh, finally, I can just lean on that diagnosis and use that as my excuse for failure. So many of these movement assessments that I see people go through, someone just comes in and goes out, I'm trying to, it's never in the context of their goals. It's just like, here's my athletic history, my shoulder hurts, my knee kind of has a thing. And then all they try to do is make everything about that. So we just zoom in and zoom in and zoom in and zoom in on that. And it's like, Hey, I don't fucking know that that's necessarily your department. And frankly, it's a waste of fucking time. It's, it's just not fucking useful. And it's going to get you sued at some point. If you continue to do it further and further and further and further along. What ends up happening with this stuff, though, is then people come in and they go perfect. Now I can make this about your shoulder. So instead of a movement assessment to make sure people like what are you fitness thing for? Are you a fitness thing for your shoulder? No. So I want to stay in shape. I want to do all these things. But my shoulder hurts, so I can't. So perfect. Well, let's find a way this is the issue we always want to write about. And it's like a lot of the time is how about let's find a way to keep you in shape. And leave his fucking shoulder alone for one working round. Never from these fucking people who are the personal trainer fucking wizards when they come in with their movement assessments and shit. It's all just a scam to get you dependent on them and their wizardry. It's like, oh, I showed you one trick. So you didn't have pain for 10 fucking seconds. Okay, but you know what else would help? Maybe like three months of rest. You want it to happen after you have shoulder surgery like a simple rotator cuff surgery. It's like five, six months of not doing anything with that arm. Like literally little, tiny little rehab movements, you know, these are long, long recoveries, that frankly, if someone comes in and has an injured shoulder, I'm more inclined to just be like, let's get whatever work we can do around it. We happen to not want to address it. Anything I'm gonna do all my only concern is does this give you pain or not. And that's it. It's not trying to fix your shoulder, I'm gonna just not grind it up any further. While we try to get you fucking jacked, dude, what let's, let's just stick stay right in my lane here. You want to lose weight, but you don't want to exercise because your knee hurts. Perfect, we can get you fit, without me needing to pretend like I can fucking heal your knee. Okay, I can get you fit, despite the fact that you may have a knee injury, that's the thing. It's not that I'm going to fix your knee injury. And that's the fucking line that a lot of these people run into. And I John, I know exactly how they crossed into this, okay? Because the personal trainer, coach, fitness coach, that line of work is such a low barrier to entry. There's a lot of people that are bad at it. And there's a lot of people that force clients through a methodology. And that's it, they just conform the client to the methodology until and sometimes there's, what's the word, sometimes there's some attrition, some people get a little beat up, right? It just happens. And so what happens then, is being a coach is ethical, and who does give a shit who doesn't do that, very often, you end up with clients who are people will tell you, Oh, I went to this CrossFit gym. And I was training there and I hurt my back. And they come to you, because you're just the next place. Right? And they're not, they're not necessarily there to fix their fucking back. And if your marketing is to fix their back or shoulder, good luck in court, just give it long enough, long, long enough time, that'll blow up in your face. But what's gonna happen is someone comes to me, and I'm not claiming I can fix their shoulder, this is the thing that people miss, you hurt your shoulder at the other gym, you want to come train with me, I don't say I can fix your shoulder, I can train you without hurting your shoulder, like we can still get in shape without your shoulder hurting. I'm not in the fucking Repair Business Pro. I'm just not it. That's just not it. I'm not a big fan of running to the doctor for every little problem either. I think that rests in some little bit of range of motion and stuff is. That's where I'd start. Okay, as the guy who had some pretty major injuries over the last couple of years that I kind of handled myself. But those policies stay in a pocket where there is no pain. And we just try to accomplish my regular day to day goals. Okay, and then once there's an issue that I can that is not just improving, then yes, I'll go and get the fucking thing looked at. But these people come in. Because you should be able to train people in a way that does not aggravate an injury, you can train people in a way that will work around an injury and you should be able to get people fit, whether they got fucking no legs, whether they got a bad shoulder, whether their faces ugly, whether they're overweight, whether they're skinny, whether they got a hip thing or a bad thing. We don't need to run right out of those problems. And again, once you start to shine such a light on those problems, people latch on to that anyways, it becomes not only their whole identity, it becomes the identity of their training. And that's the thing that I've noticed the most as a person who has maybe more concern even for me, because I know my two clients got bad shoulders, I train them together, right? And be when I allow every exercise we do to try to be like, Hey, how's that feel on the shoulder? Because every time if this is weird on the shoulder, let's just go the other way. Let's do that. I'm just working around it. The great over a long enough timeline. It is improving and they're able to accomplish their fitness goals without it. But when I am if I can tell when I'm like too frequently over the course of a month or two be like how is that on the shoulder? Is it good that the shoulder is my main concern, even though there's no problems, right? They start to obsess a lot of things about the shoulder. Yep. Whereas what they kind of want to do is there's these coaches that do that stuff too much. They're usually people that never played any real fucking sports and were never any good athletes frankly, themselves. Because you're never just like, my football coach, if my knee was fucked up, or my elbows fucked up or my back was fucked up. It wasn't a matter of like, oh, well let's you know, let's just make sure that every single thing we do is about this tiny little thing that's slowing you down a little bit. No, it's K can you fucking power through this and not be such a pussy? It's

John Fairbanks 14:33

not be a bitch yeah

Tyler 14:37

That's fine. By the way if this is going to make you not use me by then you're just gonna go away and that's the problem. Right but like if you still want it that's the way it goes. And, and I think that's the line where people missed those. I think I am a better coach. We want to not hurt people. And there are a lot of coaches that get people hurt because they're fucking stupid. Yeah, and the problem is there's a difference between not hurting people and getting mad, having them make progress and healing, being the healing expert. Come and lay on your back. Let me put my hands on you

John Fairbanks 15:14

or not, or just hover my hands over your

Tyler 15:16

eyes, close your eyes, put your hands together, like you're praying to me. Do this. The amount of times we've had to do would have to do this shit of seminars or we're doing like this type of stuff. I gotta see, I we bring in photographers, and I've tell photographers, Stop taking pictures of people laying on their backs fucking warming up their fucking low abs, because it's the least interesting fucking thing you're ever visually you're ever gonna see. And it makes this whole thing look like a fucking cool, good, good warm up drill or not whatever. Also, guys, the fact of the matter is the people preaching that type of stuff. Never once in many of my years with them in person, did I ever see them doing that type of stuff themselves, not even once. Not before training, not during training, not after, so don't pretend like that's the shit. This is all some fucking wicked little guru shit, dude. And you gotta cut it out. So just know that very often the people that are that you're learning it from when you're falling into those traps. I've already fallen into that trap. They've already completely jumped the ship. They're smelling stupid.

John Fairbanks 16:15

What most coaches, I've run into, you've run into, I think most of us that are going to listen, you're going to have a certain path where you do meet people, whether they're going to be an athlete that's playing a sport, or be an average person. That's what I know, for example, like my father in law, right? Never worked out a day. And he's like, I'm talking like a steel mill guy like hot dogs, Stan owning, like, from Chicago, like, it's, we don't work out. It's not on the menu. We're gonna be 350 pounds until we die. And like, that's, that's what we're gonna do. But it wasn't until he had Yeah, no, it's a deluge. Yeah, exactly. Right. And it's like, it just is that is what it is, I'm gonna, I'm going to a gym, which is like, I'm not gonna go do that. Yeah, and, but until he needed me, because like, he had to get a new knee. It's what happens, right? If we're gonna be 70 years old and 350 pounds, you're gonna get some new, like new fucking bones, they're gonna get installed. So you asked to get a new knee. And he goes to get the new knee. And then what's the next thing he does, once he gets his knee replacement done, he then goes for the very first time it goes to pt. Oh, there he is, with the physical therapist now for twice a week for whatever it was his insurance would cover right for six weeks. And then, because of the network of this physical therapist, it was, hey, we would strongly recommend that you continue to be able to strengthen and do these things in the gym. And in fact, hey, there's SilverSneakers, or whatever that makes it affordable for you, whatever. So for the first time, and my father in law's life, he is now working out in a gym. But I think that that rhythm and that client journey that somebody goes on from normal life to injury to PT to now showing up on your doorstep. Now, because that physical therapist had a good relationship with the performance or the fitness side or the personal training side of the business. They get to work in tandem. Yeah, and I think that this is one of the biggest gaps right now that I think really good coaches and good gym owners and good trainers may be missing by accidentally omitting that step, which is the idea that you are collaborating with people that should be the professional, that should be the person that is the expert. And that's where you actually don't have to feel like you're inferior or feel like you're overstepping. Because you can clearly say, Hey, this is the boundary, this is the line. And I have a good relationship with a PT or I have a good relationship with a person. Because guess what? Physical Therapists stuck a dick at being a personal trainer.

Tyler 18:54

I don't see any of them. I just don't see a lot of them out there. Getting people jacked and getting people strong and getting people to lose 100 pounds. Those are not things that happen very often their job. It's not. And what I'm saying is there's a there's a narrow space with which because of the way the medical system is structured, that they're required to work with him, right? That's just it, that relationship has a fixed timeline, usually, and very often only is allowed to progress them for so far, for like sorry, if I could, if I had someone that needed to lose 100 pounds, John, and they came to me, and I could only get them to lose the first one. And they can learn some things. And then I can send them on their way and hopefully it goes That's great. But they got a much higher chances of success and seeing it all the way through if there's they see me two or three times a week, right. So the reality of it right, the reality and and I think that just inherently in the physical therapy, the insurance model, that there is always going to be that gap and that is the way that it is okay. And for the coaches out there though, if You are saying that you're out here able to fix things. I'm out here fixing knees. I fixed his shoulder I fixed the elbow I fix this stuff. Using those words. It's gonna be very difficult for someone who is a personal trainer who by the way, the surgeon fix the fucking elbow the surge in sick fix the sole shoulder. It wasn't you pointing out the fact that they got molested when they were kids or whatever this some of that silly every dork out there who reads the body keeps the fucking score. And all of a sudden is some fucking dipshit expert on emotions and, and how the body handles at all and it just turns into the most pseudoscience. stupid shit I've ever fucking heard in my life. Swinburne are away. Okay, so what happens here though? Is these Bice preaching like you're fixing these things? Okay, you're now not getting the opportunity to get a good hand off. Because you sound like a fucking idiot to people that no, there's a bit of that was a Dunning Kruger effect, right where it's like, you only know a little bit. So you think you know everything because you only think that's all there is to know. Then when someone who knows more than you realize knows how little you fucking know, to be making claims like this, you're never going to be respected as a professional, let alone as somebody who they would hand off clients who they understand the limitations of their relationship with, I'd be willing to bet they would love to be able to hand some off to someone. And by the way, give like, here's a plan, here's some of the benchmarks that I would like them to get beyond before we are to not only address the injury directly, but also to address the person as a whole now, because we can address the shoulder by the way, you go to piece to a PT with your shoulder post surgery, and you're gonna be doing a lot of shoulder related things. Not gonna get abs, you're not gonna squat. Okay, you're not gonna do cardio. You're not going to do anything else other than that with your PT, right? We are addressing this issue as this singular issue with them. And so once somebody gets handed over, it's perfect. Now, I want you to be healthy. And I want you to be with somebody who I trust is first off not going to hurt you because he's not one of those bad ones. And second, isn't so chock full of fucking hubris, right? They think they're fucking, they're just, they'll just wing it with this whole plan here and they got it, they got it under control. I know shoulders. assesses as a person who's not fixing people who hurt their shoulders from doing kipping pull ups. And there's too much snatching and overhead squats and shit with CrossFit. You're not fixing them, when they come to you, and they don't have shoulder pain anymore. You're just not having them do the shit that hurt it. Right? That's the fucking line. So for those of you out there, like there's great partnerships to be had, if you stay in your fucking lane and go to a PT and say, with your fucking hat in your hand, like, Hey, if you got people like I'm trying very hard to not be hurting my people a train. So I very much take a risk versus reward approach. I'd love to get your input on the clients as they hand them off, like I would love to build this relationship. But because so many trainers fail to do that. That's why John the gym that we work with directly, that's why they gotta locations where they just do it themselves. Correct. Built it all, it's all in house, we have our own personal trainers, we have our own system, we have our own physical therapists, some of our PTS then get to moonlight and do some personal training as well. Because like, Who the fuck else is out there?

John Fairbanks 23:24

Okay, because you're not adding

Tyler 23:26

people that hurt them before they got in. That's what we're gonna send them to. And

John Fairbanks 23:30

I think that that's the preventative stuff is where it's I always wonder from a personal training perspective, or from a gyms perspective, where we've established right that it could be for a good nature, either you're you are, you're making a mistake, by being ignorant to where somebody says they just got their cast off. And they're working with a physical therapist. And now they also want to come to you because they want to be able to do supplemental stuff. If you're not then reaching out to who the physical therapist immediately and being like, Hey, yo, where's this person at? Because if you are taking an app, Tyler as an athlete, right as former athletes, did you ever live how you felt to your coaches? Always. It was mandatory. Unless you wanted to lose your fucking spot. It was

Tyler 24:19

There's two directions that lie. One was when I was hurt that I was feeling better. And the other was when I was feeling fun, and I didn't want to do stuff and

John Fairbanks 24:26

right works. So you cannot write you cannot have it be a thing to where you're going to all of a sudden trust that an athlete is telling you the truth or trust that their parents, God forbid, sometimes you get parents where you have like enough where you either can have moms that are way too nervous about their baby, or you have dads that are way too hard nose and are like he's just being a pussy. You need to rub dirt on it. It's like there's a fine line, right? Like what does the person do? What does the physical therapist say? What does the orthopedic surgeon say? Like, if you get that information? Can you still like, could you still work with that client? Of course, but man, you're gonna so there you have all the way to that angle, which is ignorance where it's like, oh, fuck, I don't know if I've thought about that step because guess what? Leads baby leads, leads, leads, you finally got a lead you got somebody through the door that is ready to pay your money? What are you gonna tell him? No, like absolute fucking literally not. And so you may make that mistake, but you have all the way to the other end of the spectrum, which is, you are overstepping. And this is what I'm wondering out loud, is our gyms and personal trainers are so hard up to get a lead, that once you do get someone that's there that maybe does have a ship that is wrong with their shoulder? It is not going to get better? Unless they go to get surgery, go see a physical therapist for a little bit. Are you in such a scarcity mindset? Like is so rooted deep in your brain that if this person leaves, they don't come back. So now you try to become like the jack of all trades, but master of none, you're taking advantage of someone's trust. And that is ultimately what's happening. Because people that don't know what the real difference is between a personal trainer and a physical therapist, they just know that you're a lot cheaper and I don't have to go through insurance or whatever it is.

Tyler 26:28

Here's the issue with that though. Most people do. That's the problem. These people making these claims at the fundamental level, their business level is these personal trainers that are doing this, their business is fucking suck. Let's be honest, have you ever seen one that's really swimming in the money, John, of all the ones that we know that have gone through all that you're seeing they're really killing it? No, no, no people making the money of the people teaching you to fucking do that. That's it, buddy. So you got to remember that like, none of those gyms are actually successful, that are really making this about their thing. They're not killing it, they're barely surviving at best. What you're doing here is embarrassing yourself in front of everybody.


You're basically just going through this merge as a doctor, I know all the stuff because I've never had a real job. Fuck

Tyler 27:17

off. It's not true. It's just not true that you know, all that stuff. But knowing where that line is, I think that that's, I think that that's what is important because if the surgeon and the diagnosing doctor, they're there to diagnose and repair the injury, right, right. Okay, your PT is there to kind of help rebuild and recover from whatever we did to heal the injury, right? Whether it was surgery, or whether it was time off, wherever it is, we're gonna rebuild a little bit of structure right there on the injury. But then who's going to help that person still be a healthy person, help them get in shape, despite that injury after the fact, that should be you as a personal trainer. But because you're fucking pissing on other people's territory too much. Everybody else looks at you and goes, This guy's a fucking idiot. Like, I'm not going to like all your stuff, this is the biggest thing, when you're marketing about getting people out of pain. That's not the fucking results that people are going to just so mediate with ABS for

John Fairbanks 28:15

what we and we've said for years, right? Like, it's who the fuck you're talking to?

Tyler 28:19

Yeah, what are you talking about? You're just trying to tell your other coach friends and the other people in your silly little coaching group that like, see, look, I'm out here doing the thing. It's like no, you're not actually because nobody responds to those ads, you get one or two, one or two people a year that might bite on that. But great, congratulations. But you could get a whole bunch of people that actually have shoulder to shoulder stuff, knees, stuff back stuff, and you could really help them and make a difference by staying in your lane, getting them in the handoff and then doing a good job from there. But instead you just embarrass yourself publicly by talking like that. It's embarrassing to watch from a distance and I know we've talked to medical professionals about this stuff and they're like, Yeah, most of these motherfuckers are one lawsuit away from losing everything. Yeah, frankly. So and that's the truth. You know, they know malpractice insurance on your fucking business. I know laws protecting you from malpractice, buddy. So you're gonna eat a whole plate of shit. If the promises you're making you can't keep and this is where the line gets really funny. These dorks start dabbling in mental health. I'm going to fix your anxiety. I'm going to get you off your anxiety meds Okay.

John Fairbanks 29:27

kills themselves

Tyler 29:29

see how that goes by

John Fairbanks 29:30


Tyler 29:33

fucking damn it it's it's crazy that again there's a the the the hubris in some of these people is fucking insane. And it comes with the territory. Because there are people that we talk to a lot like male personal trainers. It's just hot guy syndrome.

John Fairbanks 29:51


Tyler 29:52

it really is just like I've just been a hot guy I can. I can say whatever I want. I just say got ABS you mean abs and I come in I do my abs stuff. I work out at my gym. was to Jack but you know, everything's so this is also why you can't always trust people who have just always been fit, either. You know what I'm saying? Like someone was like, Oh no, you're just not good at anything else. Do this because it's just the only thing you can do fine. That's okay. You know, I know some guys that one thing they can do is work in a factory and they work in a factory there's nothing wrong with that. But let's not pretend like they're the best they're out there ever fucking was here. Right so but to start dipping your toes in that and start making those claims about anxiety, mental health, depression. Obviously, guys, do you know what the cure is? You know what a good cure is for anxiety, depression, it will help your mental health exercising, there is fundamental benefits of exercising and getting stronger and making progress and eating better and having discipline and chalking up stacking up wins every day instead of depressing losses and procrastination and, and shame of not doing things and all the stuff. That is the real benefit of mental health there is absolutely insane. I still believe that I am anxious or depressed. I think it was anxiety, knowing depression and antidepressants was just like a couple of hours a week of exercise, like statistically speaking is better for the long term and is more impactful for reducing depression syndrome, or depression sharp, right? It just is versus the medication versus prescription intervention is better.

John Fairbanks 31:30

Okay, and the idea of community right? The idea of having this

Tyler 31:35

thing that right, it's not one thing, but to go out and say, I will help you fix your depression. It's like no, just exercise because it's fucking good for you. And you'll feel better buddy. Quit running right at the thing. Do you have anxiety? Would you like to just think your anxiety will get better if we make another three hours a week about your anxiety only now just come in and exercise, do something else, get some wins and feel better? These people miss it by going straight at it. It says they're just a fucking hammer looking for a nail. And it sucks.

John Fairbanks 32:07

And it opens you up again. For me it is the way I the only way that I can look at it is that you're preying on people that are the most vulnerable? Yes, at the end of the day, you're right, it is predatory. Because teaching

Tyler 32:22

you guys these things, you coaches out there, they are also predatory. Yeah, because you just care. That's it. You just want to be good at your job. You just want to help the people. Most of you, some of you out there, it's to feed your own fucking ego. It's part of your own little god complex. But the people that are teaching you this stuff, it's predatory because you just care. You're like, How can I help these people better? Oh, cool. You mean I can make the people that I work with feel better. If they're sad, I can make them feel better, if they're hurt, I can make them not be in pain. That sounds great. And so the people are preying on that and getting you to buy their shit, and fucking do all their things and make all your training stuff about what they do now. There you go, you're just selling somebody else's jockstrap?

John Fairbanks 33:03

And can we please talk about this is just the modern day equivalent, or non college equivalent of just staying in one master's degree to another Master's degree to a doctorate degree just to be able to postpone paying back student loans, like you are hiding the constant desire and the constant need to just more I need more education, more continuing education and to learn more, oh, this is something that's interesting, I'm gonna learn, learn learn, it's like you are if you own a gym, for like it, there is there is a moment where you are hiding from what you should be doing to like actually be able to be successful. And

Tyler 33:45

You should focus on your gym, get more clients, make more money, grow, get more staff so that eventually, your genius way that you train and coach people can actually have an impact in your community. But instead, a lot of these coaches have businesses that are barely surviving. Barely, and they're just sinking money into learning more fucking wizardry. It's like, okay, well, that doesn't help you. It doesn't help your people, it doesn't really help anything. In the end, it's gonna cost you everything, you should be focused on the things that are really going to help you grow. And this is what's said before, it's just a distraction. You're just distracting yourself from the fact that your business is a failure. And that your family is barely able to feed your family.

John Fairbanks 34:22

Because post 2020 Does everybody have appear to have fucking anxiety and depression or whatever the fuck? Okay? Sure. So you see that? So is the idea then as a gym owner, and as a personal trainer, you're noticing that your clients you care about, and they're all having mental shit now. So obviously, logically, Tyler The answer is I need to go back to school and become a fucking psychiatrist or psychologist. No, God dammit. The most logical answer is you then find somebody that's in your local community that can then join your fucking ecosystem. and referral and be able to say, Hey, you're a mental health professional, you've already done the thing, you already have good reviews, and people have referred to you, to me, it's like, I have people that need help, too. And that is, but it is being honest with your fucking self that it's, I know where my limitations are. And I now stop there. And then I can hand those people off to mental health professionals, or you can go get a certification on nutrition, you can do that. Right. And that's great. But there's also fucking nutritionist as well, right? Like, there's an area where you can shortcut a lot of these things.

Tyler 35:38

Yes. And I believe fully as a coach, like I should be teaching nutrition to my clients, but there's a line where to scale, maybe I don't want to or maybe simply for legitimacy. Right? I'm 300 pounds with ABS, but I'm chock full of testosterone, okay, strongman competitor. So there's a lot of things that if someone who's, you know, just wants to lose a little bit of weight, or a lean person wants to get leaner, maybe they don't, they're just inherently not inclined to trust me. Right? In that regard, that's fine. By the way, if someone comes in wanting to gain mass, they're probably going to take my word 100% of the way, right, very likely. And even though I'm capable of taking lots of people, I have lots of different goals. And I'll fault somebody for seeing someone my size and what I do and my training, and go, Oh, well, that's not the guy I want to go to if I want to get my Beachbody for my bikini this summer, right? I get it. So just simply a registered dietitian or a nutritionist. Now, all of a sudden, that person though probably the initial impression from the public, what are they going to have about that person? Occupy, trust them for whatever I want to do? I want to gain a little muscle there, that you guys are trying to manufacture trust, where there is none when you're doing this stuff, versus you partner with someone whose perception is that they are an expert. Let them just be the expert. You just do the partnership thing. It's so much easier to do this. And I think that like now we sit in a spot where there's so much other shit out there. Like I have a client who has students whose parents, one of the parents sends this person to some fuckin fascia guru shit. So it's like, yeah, yeah. And it's just whatever. I don't think it's all fucking Whoo, whatever I go, if I go to a thing, and I feel better when I'm done and fine, we're good. Like, but I don't do that stuff all the time for no fucking reason. Right? Right. And so once I have to go to a thing, and then I have to go, and then I'd go two or three days a week, forever, and I'm not getting results. Is it just maintenance? Well, now I think

John Fairbanks 37:50

little chiropractors

Tyler 37:52

I think that you're doing a bad chiropractic business, right? Yeah, chiropractic business. You're doing shady chiropractor business. And that's kind of what was going on here. And the husband came to me and was like, fuck, and she sent into it one time. And sure enough, after two weeks, he's like, Oh, it's a really good thing we got in here because man, his knee is going to be a whole thing. It's like, and then they send the kid, the other kid and their daughter in and it's the same deal that is like, oh my goodness, yeah, she was gonna be a whole real mess. It's like, No, this is a growing person. This person is 14 years old. And as a beanpole, we've been fixing the skinny for about a year so we've been out gaining fortunately the height growth so that this person isn't just fucking all elbows and fucking uncoordinated This is a coordinated athletic young man who is now relatively strong for a sizing continuing to grow but that is just that's what you guys are like when you're making these claims. But because you're doing that stuff now I want to be able to tell this person this client that I think that is bullshit that they're going to do right and that his knee and and all that stuff would be much better served if he just got a little stronger and we did things that would hurt because by the way he's never had any pain not even for a moment so it's not a knee pain thing it is disprin just invented a knee problem sure sound familiar? You assessment people who will look at this there's a movement imbalance that the client never even knew they had well then it's not that big of a fucking problem is it right if you never noticed that it wasn't a fucking problem. And so like we want to be the expert, we can tell him like hey, this is probably bullshit and you're paying this person as much money as your knee right? The problem is there's a lot of other things out there disguising themselves as medicine and disguising themselves as real experts. I get it. We want to position ourselves as better than that. But there is a line and where is that line? The line is I don't think you need fucking crystals for your fucking shoulder.

John Fairbanks 39:51


Tyler 39:52

think that's the case I guess I don't

John Fairbanks 39:53

know what the courts alignment on the chakra Tyler You haven't heard about the effectiveness that has too much Again, as soon as

Tyler 40:01

soon as people who are focused as far as I'm concerned are relatively physically weak and uninteresting start talking about chakras. I'ma be like fucking the real deal is if you start incorporating chakras into your fitness methodology. I'm fucking out dude, go for it go for, but how fucking narrow of a market are you dealing with now?

John Fairbanks 40:22

Tyler, do you know how awesome it would be to have a bunch like a witches coven that you just get that's jacked. That's just a bunch of just fucking jacked witches that are like, chakras and burnin sage and shit.

Tyler 40:36

So this is I guess this episode is to me just really bitching about a bunch of people that we've known over the years to do this type of stuff. But I've seen it, I've seen this firsthand is what I'm trying to say here. It's not like I witnessed this from a distance, like a lot of you guys sometimes see it, we had, we've probably like 80% of the people that we worked with this organization are essentially getting like run into shit like this, or at least interpreting it as that. And it's like, Man, this whole thing that we were getting into started as just that, like, hey, that people are using a training methodology in a way that's hurting people. Here's how we fill in some of those gaps. And here's the lenses that we use to view that training and how we maybe would tweak a few things to make sure that you get the benefits of this training without getting hurt. So it's not even training to prevent injuries. It's training in a way that is made to not get you hurt while you're training. So we can open up the door for you to continue to make progress for whatever it is you're there for performance fitness, weight loss, whatever. And then we'll just watch them all turn into total about everything. Did you hear that beep? I did hear the beep. I made sure. I made sure to censor myself because also sometimes you still go through unless I have this setup, right? I didn't actually say the workouts but it's funny. No, but they turn into total dorks about it, they just do. And it gets super lame. Now washed. And you also watch an organization like that, that has a bunch of like, real people in the beginning, by the time we popped in, like, we're like, I get this, this all makes sense devolve into just a bunch of dogmatic weirdos. It's just like, it's crazy.

John Fairbanks 42:12

And we saw it. And we saw that from all the way over there, right in the corner of the universe that we existed. And the fact is that this episode comes about because the exact problem is being seen and felt in a totally another corner of the markets that tells us right, zero

Tyler 42:27

crossover, by the way, this is what we're getting from this has there's zero crossover into these circles that we're touching on that I'm talking about. So like, this is a formula. It's being used out there, because frankly, it's more compelling on social media to talk about that type of stuff if you're interested in fitness. I don't need to see more ways to do lat pulldown or anything like this. So if there's a new angle, and it's in a new thing, like, yeah, it's gonna get some eyes from the dorks who are fitness dorks. Correct. But trust me, your clients are not that so they don't care. And they definitely don't trust you for that.

John Fairbanks 43:03

There's one other benefits that I wanted to touch on too, because one of the things we work with, gyms oftentimes are in the top, certainly the top five things, the gyms that we work one on one with inside of the gear Academy, when we start doing consulting, we working with these bots is consistent at the top five things, this item is always on it for every agent working with. And this has to do with referrals. Like referrals are always on there. How do I get referrals or a misunderstanding of what referrals are whether or not word of mouth and all that kind of stuff, right? But it's always in the top five of wanting to get leads, and then how do they have? How do they get referrals from their existing people? And the fact is, is if you look at this, if you're going down the path of sniffing your own farts, and being a total douche about everything, it's you you fix one person, you hook one person, you Yeah, you fix one person, you know, right you you take advantage of their trust in predatory practices on purpose or through ignorance. How many referrals is that person really going to give you over the lifetime that they're going to be in your spot? done most of the time? None. Right? Most of the time it is none. Like if you can you can have a super refer that gives you a bunch of people

Tyler 44:25

but this is for the same reasons that show all those terrible fucking gym launch bait and switch challenge plays fucking are kind of not doesn't work in the long run anyways, because you trick people to get them in and then it's very disingenuous. And then now you're not getting any referrals. That's why it's short term. That's why those people end up jumping ship and those gyms end up in a long term price for their credibility in the long run. And

John Fairbanks 44:49

humans, they're not they're not professional networkers and professional marketers, people that come and want to work with you. They may really like you they may stay with you for well over yours, they may be there for now two years, and they may never have given you a referral, because they're fucking paying you. They like your business. They like what you're doing. They like how it's working for them. But because they don't immediately become an MLM slot, and start trying to horror out their entire family list and their friends list. Well, hey, have you had your first? Where are your five? You got five friends? How about you give me their emails and their phone numbers? Like who are your people? Like, it's if you get too careful, especially with those other groups, like we would call it like the gym launch tactics and strategies. It's like, would you be willing to sell your family's information to us? Would you be willing just to give us all your whole it's like Google fucking asking the link up with your contacts. Like, oh, we would like to be able to have your contacts list just because it'll help you use the app better. It's the equivalent. And so because we're because that so it's, you do the disingenuous shit for this one person, they're just not going to give you refer like, based on the averages, you just aren't going to get from one person like that, that is a serious volume game. But if you then don't do all that stupid shit, and you build, we talked about this ecosystem, you build these partnerships across a nutritionist, a massage therapist, a physical therapist, a mental health professional. And often what you do is how many referrals do you think you're going to get from those individuals? If you are in an area where it's you're helping kids? Well, guess what childhood fucking obesity is a major goddamn problem. What do you do for any type of networking or relationship building? From fucking pediatricians in the area? Yeah. So there's this element where it's like, how many referrals and I'll tell you right now that when those things do get built, those partnership you know, Cabal type shit that you can build up in a community, but for good, is you really can have this genuine ecosystem where people are able to get the help that they need from people that are really good, because you're doing business with those people and talking about word of mouth. And I mean, the reality is you can go to a pediatrician. And when they say, Oh, your kid got hurt, they're playing sports, they got hurt, where are they going to do physical therapy, and you say the name of the place they go, all man, they're the best. We were for so many people, so much more valuable than all of a sudden trying to pretend to be something. And

Tyler 47:33

this works so much, so much more thoroughly than simply referrals as well, this hands up, these partnerships actually end up being lead generation tactics exam. Because if a physic physiotherapist, a, has a client for whatever reason, let's say it's an eight let's say it's your, your father in law comes in with a bum knee. Yep, had surgery had it replaced and they get it fixed up and then he's got to work with this dude, he's sitting there just doing fucking hamstring curls and calf raises and TIB raises and, you know, just slowly walking on it and just, you know, the all of the gradual progressions to get somebody from, frankly, like a scale of one to 100 zero to like 15 Right. There's so many people that come off that now that they are that physiotherapist, if that physical therapist gave a shit about this person's knee feeling better in the end, what are they going to say? Listen, man, you're 400 pounds. It's got to come off, you need to lose weight, like I need you to lose some weight and you need to be moving in order to do this and I need you to move away it's not going to fuck it up. So don't take up skateboarding. You know what I mean? Don't go skiing. Right there's a trainer down the road here who I know who I trust. If I can send him your information let him know what to look out for. You know, they do some nutrition coaching there so they can help you get the weight off without wearing a tear while wearing your shit down and breaking even worse. And in my opinion that's a conversation that now makes a lot of sense. That person that that physiotherapist is not going to go send I'm gonna send you to this guy who says he can fucking fix knee pain right just not he's like no no this is all a part of a much longer process so by the way, so we almost just ain't been around long enough to know that sometimes your shit just starts because it hurts because your emotions and it's not because it's something that you can move through everything sometimes you need a brake job my shoulder has been in absolute disarray for going on almost two years now. And the amount of like, oh what corrective exercises should you do what corrective exercises should you do or well the right shoulder Jesus some of that the emotion stuff the dumbest shit out there by the way I fucking hate it's the dumbest but oh the right shoulder argue me around your family over the holidays because of your right shoulder you know what you guys know I did jiu jitsu you ever get fucking Camorra in here your shit just shred buddy. Like sometimes people who play real sports have real injuries, instead of just speculating about the cause of these things. It's like no shoulder. So I've been torn up, found a way to just train enough to not slip to not backslide on your overall health, right train up to make some physical progress, and give the shoulder arrest, which is basically what I've done John for a year and a half of keeping it slow. And everyone's off the bucket because I'm still training and finding the line. But I still trained right last month and a half now, two months now. It's been like, Dude, it's great. Then I fix my shoulder, John. No, I rested it. And so I trained in a way that didn't fix my shoulder. I just trained in a way that stayed away from this problem that wasn't rubbing sand into the wound all the time. And is my shoulder better? No. Am I ever going to bench press 475 pounds again? No. Like, no, let's be honest. No, it's not gonna happen. Could it happen if I was going to put all my eggs into that basket? I mean, maybe, but I don't care, either. Right. So like, being the FIX IT guy, isn't it just the guy that's there for them when they need you.

John Fairbanks 51:10

And the ethical piece that you and I keep calling out. It's not fear mongering, because the one thing you have to realize is if you if this continues to encroach into the mental health industry and into physical therapies, industry, you will be sued by those organizations, by

Tyler 51:25

organizations that you cannot fight that litigation with. This is the problem with you know, when Coca Cola was going to CrossFit, they were, they were going at CrossFit, like, CrossFit wasn't suing Coca Cola because of the sugar. That's not it, that's just one of the things that they were bringing up in the process. Coca Cola, CrossFit was suing Coca Cola, because Coca Cola was funding studies, and trying to make sure that CrossFit became essentially illegal to coach unless you had some other certification. So it's basically going to completely invalidate their certification structure. So they're trying to make all these studies and see CrossFit as dangerous. So everybody who's going to be a personal trainer has to have one of these other certifications funded by Coca Cola organizations, just a lobbying play that CrossFit had to fight against. Because they were just trying to basically really box him in Legally, you know, it's kind of like it was the equivalent of how labor unions and stuff like that tried to keep Uber out of cities. Right, right. Actually, they already have a tax cap structure, those structures are already in place, they're defending that structure. Okay. So that's what that was. Okay, back then. Now, y'all are gonna get this with like, the giant medical apparatus. Your personal trainers are out making this claim. And I don't know if you saw what 2020 was. But that medical apparatus can do some shit, whether it's right, wrong, ethical or not, like they can make a lot of people believe a lot of things. And if you want to fight against it, you have to have a pocketbook to do it. So I'm telling you, I'm warning you stay the fuck in your lane. I just don't understand the urge to get so big for your britches, if you just would fucking help people. And you would help people actually accomplish what they came there to accomplish. Stop redirecting their goals. And just do it just to be the person that helps people get fit. If you're a boss, off-season performance be the person that gets kids in really good shape, get some durable, strong, athletic, powerful fast, right? That's your fucking job. Okay, be the person that gets somebody when the PT gets done gets them from zero to 20, zero to 25 be the person that gets them from 25 to 65. Yeah. And then get some reading off of them and give them some longevity and give them a higher quality of life. But you don't have to sell that you just can be you and do it. Well, like we're all focusing on the wrong thing. When you do this other stuff. It sucks. It sucks. And everybody knows it. Everybody knows you're not equipped to do it. I've never seen a single coach that posts about this subject. That's not laughable to the general public. The general public is what the fuck is this? No. Like everybody who sees it, who's not in your tight little circle of losers is laughing at you, rightfully so until the lawyers come on until you actually fight to hurt somebody. We're actually dropped the ball in a mental health situation. Now you're really fucked. And

John Fairbanks 54:20

be humble enough to have people that can partner with you. Because like you do physical therapists do want to have good ethical, knowledgeable personal trainers in their network. Yeah, because most people, most physical therapists and most physical therapy places don't. It's not like the client that we work with. They don't have a gym that's also attached that has separate personal trainers that are completely separate from physical there because you know what a physical therapists doing all day, fucking physical therapy. That's what they're doing all day. They're full of clients that are having insurance get paid like it's, it's a different business. And so The idea that it's them and they know what their limitations are, that they are going to have loads where they understand where their industry starts and ends and how much good they can do. I guarantee you, if it tears up good physical therapists, just as bad to know that they only get to get somebody to 15, from zero to 15, you'll get to see him 12 times, they can only go so far. And they can only focus on one part of the body and they can't legally deviate even though they know the Hambone is connected to the neck bone, right? Like even though they know these things interact, you can't write insurance doesn't allow. So there's so many pieces where they know that that is where they can't do it. And so they would benefit and how good nutrition is, of course, because here's the issue, this overreach is happening in all of these. Yes, like the idea of a nutritionist that then is going to give like a fitness or a workout routine. Where the fun but where the fuck do you think they're getting that from? And so it's understood like, it's we're going hard from one particular angle because it's our angle. But it's this mistake and overstepping and blurring of lines is happening all over the fuck I'd go

Tyler 56:09

the same distance with having a physical therapist tells me about how to get somebody to put on 40 pounds of fucking muscle over the next hand. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, if someone needs to get big and jacked I was like, yeah, don't take that from the, the fucking rehab guy. Right? I'm the fucking big jacket. Let's stay on our feet. I'll stay in my lane, you stay involved in yours. But the truth is, too is like a personal trainer, personal trainer. I want to know which physios? Which rehab specialists which chiropractors are actually about, and nutritionists who are actually about the things I'm about, right. I do not want to send somebody to a physio physical therapist who is going to be the purchases while you just can't be lifting weights anymore. Because that's that in it. And that's real. By the way, I'm the same way with doctors. I've had people go in with a shoulder injury and the doctor said, Yeah, use can't be benching anymore. Okay, well, can I do it now? Probably just no pressing are like, over it nothing. So can we get to a point where I can do something that doesn't hurt? Or is this thing just off limits forever? Well, that's a non solution, right? So there's a surgical solution that can get this person doing the things they like, by the way, I don't think everybody should benchpress and I don't anymore, but I know guys who would absolutely go through a surgery and fucking 1214 months of recovery, so that they can start over from scratch and Pinterest because they love it so much. So I want a doctor, physio, everybody else on my team that I want to refer somebody to, it's about getting them what they want. Okay, if I get a guy that wants to take all the fucking sauce in the world, because he wants to be a world champion, okay, am I I'm fine, then I'll try to make sure. Those are your priorities. I'll warn you of that. If it's beyond a line that I'm willing to deal with, then, yeah, I will not participate in such a thing. But somebody's got to be there for these people and their goals or their goals. And it's really important that we do not reappropriate them for them that we do not just like, redirect it completely. And that's what happens when you go in, it's like, oh, yeah, your shoulder hurts. Yeah, stop lifting. Okay, so like, it's that, that that thing happens, and you need to know that like, it's, it's all the same, that person in my eyes is that a bad doctor? That's a doctor, I would not recommend anybody to go with this doctor. Anytime one of my clients says they have a bit of a thing and they want to go get it looked up, like don't go to fucking him, though. Go to someone who's going to who is going to weigh who's going to balance the scales between what this injury is, and what your desired quality of life is. Okay. And that's the equation I want with as far as when I am deciding who I want in my clients corner that I'm going to recommend. For those of you out there, like to be somebody that a visit like that a good physio would record refer somebody to be that person, make those relationships, don't take on an adversarial relationship with these organizations with these with this entire field. an adversarial relationship with that field is going to be very terrible for you. Because people will always trust them more than you. Always the general public. White Coat. Maybe it's a white coat. Yeah, yeah. And I was just talking with a client the other day, he was like, you know, going and seeing the doctor. He's like, it was kind of commenting on a man. He's fucking doctors, though. He's like, they walk in the room and everybody's so up there as like, somehow they're under the impression that every single thing that they say that every single subject that comes up that they're the experts on, it's because they've just been spent all day getting treated like the expert, so I get it, but these coaches are the worst. John, these coaches get like a little bit of expertise and a little bit of clout, and they just turn into fucking monsters. It reminds me of when like the dorks got a hold of the internet, and all of a sudden there's just dorks bullying people, and I thought this was supposed to go the other way around. It's exactly what y'all do. Uh, so don't be a fucking Thor. Stay in your lane, do your thing, do it well, people will trust it in the long run. That's got us going for the nest , got us all we're going to do for today. What are we going to do here, John?

John Fairbanks 1:00:11

Yeah, all we have to do is we got to say goodbye and follow the gym owners podcast on Instagram at the gym owners podcast. You can follow me on Instagram at Jay banks FL and you can follow Tyler

Tyler 1:00:22

Tyler Elphinstone on Instagram is Tyler eff ironstone thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

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